Cartographic Analysis

(00:00) S. Tabibian: Welcome to the Climate Map podcast. The Climate Map, an initiative founded by Covalence Global, outlines the complexities of climate change on a streamlined, action-oriented mind map. This podcast is an archive for our research, highlighting conversations with dynamic climate actionists. You can learn more about The Climate Map at covalenceglobal.org. 

(00:21) S. Tabibian: Namra Khalid is an architectural designer turned urban researcher and a positive change maker. Her work strives to create socio-climatic justice in the most vulnerable communities of Pakistan. She is the founder and director of Karachi Cartography (karachicartography.org), which aims to rethink the city for improved climate planning, adaptation, and resilience. Problem identification - mapping - is the essential first step in understanding what was, is, and can become. Hence she has initiated the work with cartographic analysis focused on water systems. For this, she was selected as one of the World Around's 25 under and 25 climate designers 2023. Among the 25 she was further awarded the Young Climate Visionary Prize, and presented her work at the Solomon R. Guggenheim Museum. 

She is also the co-founder of Tabahi Naqsha (website coming soon: TabahiNaqsha.pk), a real-time disaster information-sharing system in development, by CogniCity OSS. It aims to accelerate humanitarian response across Pakistan by harnessing the power of crowdsourcing through social media.

While pursuing her undergrad at Parsons, Namra was awarded several grants from the Pantheon Institute, and Chulalongkorn University to conduct field studies in New York, Rome, and Chiang Mai. Her thesis, 'Rice Craft Compound,' a proposal for a community civic center in Ban San Si reutilized agricultural byproducts to sustain an aging village. This received the School of Constructed Environment Highest Design Research Award 2020.

(01:45) S. Tabibian: Tell us a little bit about yourself. Where are you from? What are your interests? And how did you learn about climate change? 

(01:51) Namra Khalid: So I'm from Karachi, Pakistan. I enjoy mapping. As my work says, I enjoy painting. I also enjoy singing, which is a secret hobby, but just a lot of different things. So I think I learned about climate change like everyone does in school, local warming was a topic. But I truly learned and understood about it when my city and my country started facing the most horrible consequences of climate change. So we started having horrible floods back in the 2010s and then just heat waves were so bad like in 2015 we had a heat wave which killed over a thousand people in my city. It wasn't just about sitting there and knowing that this heat is not normal; it's not any heat you've experienced before. As soon as you come out of the shower you don't know whether you have sweat on your body or if your hair is wet from the shower. And just you know like boiling heat is something that was beyond imaginable, so I think that was when I really started thinking about it and started learning more about it. 

(03:10) S. Tabibian: That's really fascinating to hear. When did you first take an interest in architectural design and urban research? 

(03:19) Namra Khalid: Architectural design, I took architectural design as my undergrad major. It wasn't something I had really thought about clearly. I went to a design school for my undergrad Parsons and at that time I was literally interested in every form of design possible so I went for an undeclared major. Every month I would change what I wanted to major in like the feeling inside me. Just the day that I had to submit my application for my major, it was that I was feeling like architectural design and it ended up being that. The interesting aspect of that was that every architectural project that I was supposed to do in my studio classes ended up being an urban design project unknowingly because somehow I was just inclined towards that. 

(04:17) S. Tabibian: Awesome, and what is your personal definition of socio -climatic justice? 

(04:23) Namra Khalid: So socio -climatic justice I think is for me it's about taking two different things, social justice and climate justice, both of which work hand in hand if you actually think about it. You can't have any climate justice without social justice and you can't have any social justice without climate justice because in today's day and age climate is the biggest issue that connects all humans and whether it be it today or tomorrow everyone will be affected by climate change in horrible, horrible ways. Maybe even little things like not being able to go outside, it's too cold or too hot. Or be it bigger things like in my own city, in my own country, where houses are flooded, you don't have a place to live anymore. So climate change is health repercussions, you know, so many waterborne diseases that spread because of floods. So climate change I think is something that overrides all types of justice. And again, there is no climate justice without social justice. 

(05:40) S. Tabibian: I really like how you demonstrate how social issues and climatic issues are just deeply and inherently interconnected. And now that we've kind of established some baseline terms and definitions, I wanted to talk a little bit about Karachi Cartography.  What inspired you to found Karachi Cartography and how did you personally experience the issues that you are addressing? 

(06:04) Namra Khalid: So Karachi Cartography was founded actually in a very accidental way as well. I was just researching about climate change in Pakistan in general and also particularly in Karachi.  And to do that, again, I went towards my own urban research style education and naturally I was inclined to see how Karachi transformed and evolved on maps to see how climate change affected and how urban development affected climate change and how climate change affected urban development and what the repercussions for that were.  While doing that and trying to find maps, I realized our maps are just missing. So Karachi Cartography literally started as a search for maps. It was January 2nd, 2022 that I realized that a lot of maps are actually in people's private collections, hung in people's bedrooms, drawing rooms and just all over the place. 

(07:15) Namra Khalid: So I thought, how am I supposed to find something that's in someone's private collection? And the idea was, let's just make an Instagram page with an open call that if you have a map, send it to us. At that time, I thought it's actually going to be a super, super nerdy thing and nobody's gonna respond to it. But in the first year only, we got over 200 maps. We also ended up finding out that a lot of Karachi's maps are still disputed colonial property. They are everywhere in the world, from Czechoslovakia, to Spain, to Japan, to America. Yeah, that's just how Karachi Cartography came into being. 

(08:02) S. Tabibian: That's so cool how it started as just a search for maps and now it's grown into something so big. So what is your vision at Karachi Cartography?  Why is mapping a valuable tool for problem identification and improving climate planning, adaptation, and resilience? 

(08:19) Namra Khalid: If you were to go to a doctor and the doctor was like, you need surgery and like stomach surgery, even though you went because you were having a headache. Would you take that doctor seriously? Probably not, right? Like you'd be like, what are they talking about? And they're just a general doctor. They've not done any diagnostic tests. They've not done any x -rays, any blood tests, nothing. And they're just prescribing that I need surgery. It'd be like, this doctor seems really fishy. In the same way when we start trying to plan a city and trying to make it more climate resilient or just do anything about it, doing that without maps is like doing it without any diagnostic tests. And unfortunately, in the case of Karachi and in the case of so many cities around the developing world, maps are missing. So without maps, we're not able to identify the problems that we have in terms of our urban structures. Sometimes recent maps are only missing and sometimes older maps are missing as well. So in either case, we're not able to tell what the socio -climatic evolution of the city is. And without that, we're just planning without any proper insight, without any proper identification. Therefore, mapping is literally the baseline for understanding the urban structures and then using the urban structures to plan for a climate planning adaptation and resilience. And our vision for Karachi Cartography is to have this baseline information ready so that when we make decisions, when we design for a better future, we have this information. 

(10:12) S. Tabibian: Absolutely. As the founder and director of Karachi Cartography, what are your primary responsibilities? What does a day in your life look like? 

(10:22) Namra Khalid: Oh, this is a tough one. So this can literally look like anything. I've done all sorts of jobs for Karachi Cartography. We do have an amazing and brilliant team who has volunteered extensively and also just worked in so many things. But I feel like I've done like design work, I've done research work, management work, admin and management is something I do not like at all. Just literally anything. A day in my life can also look like anything. There are times when I sleep like an hour a night and still, you know, have to work like 23 hours a day or something along those lines. And sometimes it's easier. 

(11:05) S. Tabibian: Wow, it sounds like you have a lot going on at Karachi Cartography, and that requires a lot of talent to take on all those tasks. But more specifically, tell us how cartographic analysis works. How did you first learn to do it? And how does it allow you to map such complex water systems? 

(11:24) Namra Khalid: I did a semester in Rome, and that's where I learned cartographic analysis at the Pantheon Institute by one of the only cartographers who is working in this field, till now, Alan Ceen.  He's an old person. He's in his 80s, and he spent all his life understanding maps of Rome. Rome is also a very interesting city because Rome is layered. Take a level in Rome, and you unearth another city. Rome is a city built on top of another city but when you unearth another level from what you have unearthed you then see another city underneath and this at least three to four levels this is very highly possible but even more. 

(12:13) Namra Khalid: So Rome used to have a lot of flooding and whenever they would flood or they also had a big fire they would start building a city on top to stop the damage. So in that way Rome is really really interesting it also has the oldest cartographic paths and at that time when I was studying with Alan Ceen he made me realize some of the most fascinating things about maps and how they show how a city transformed. So just by looking at a map and how streets turn you can tell whether this was a planned development whether it was a street made for horses or humans or it was a water pathway that eventually turned into something else and that to me was super super fascinating. 
(13:06) Namra Khalid: With the case of Karachi and with the case of every other city in the world it's similar in terms of being able to see a map and then figuring out how things have changed. Karachi's water systems are also somewhat the same so with Karachi's water systems what we do is we try to find older maps and then see where the water systems were. Because at the present most of these water systems have been built upon and when we look at satellite images most of our satellite images go only back to the 1970s all of our satellite images actually and at that time a lot of these water pathways were already covered so to even understand where these water pathways are we need to look at older maps, often older maps which were not made using the kind of instruments we have today. So we also have to do a lot of like analysis and figure out what place is there because it's not definitely obvious by just looking at the map or labeled so. 

(14:16) S. Tabibian: Wow, that opened my mind up a lot to how there can be so many layering cities and how old maps are just as valuable as if not more valuable than the new ones because we need them in order to better understand the future of Karachi.  So what are the biggest challenges you've faced at Karachi Cartography so far and how did you overcome them? 

(14:40) Namra Khalid: There's always challenges with any work anyone does, they keep happening. So I've also realized that a lot of challenges are more in my mind than in reality. So I was really really like worried about why would people be interested in this and how to get people together to actually come towards a cause initially, but it was something that just happened naturally it. I mean, every time we've put a call for anything in Karachi Cartography, for team members, for anything at all people, come and even if when we don't, so many people come together and are always offering support. 

(01:51) Namra Khalid: Initially, we had no money. And then we realized that over 200 people ended up volunteering for us. It's just is beautiful to see how so many people come together when they care about something. I mean, I didn't even do anything to overcome it; it just happened naturally. Today, we are also facing challenges. We have so much to do and so little time, you know, like when you think about factors like there are projections that Karachi might be fully submerged in water by 2060. It's not that far. It's like, how do you manage to do so many things? You have to first make these maps, then you need to design for resilience, then also advocate for policy changes and actually get that design. But how are we supposed to do all of this so soon? 

(16:05) S. Tabibian: What role do you think the public and private sector play in Pakistan's climate crisis? How can they collaborate to drive meaningful change? 

(16:14) Namra Khalid: One of the issues with Pakistan's both public and private and mostly sector is that we don't plan for disasters. We're amazing when it comes when we have to do work post disasters. I mean, many times Pakistan has actually been the country which has the highest per capita emissions. When, you know, there's a disaster, literally millions of people, not even exaggerating, millions of people get together and try to help in whatever way they can, many of them also offering on ground support. But when it comes to planning for disasters that's just never done. 

(16:58) Namra Khalid: We also have a very short -term memory so during a disaster like floods, which happen very often in Pakistan, everyone will remember what it is but you know, two years down the lane it's like somewhat like nobody's thinking that the next flood is also about to happen at any time, so might as well plan for it. That's a huge issue. Collaborations for meaningful change are definitely needed. There are many opportunities for that as well but again it becomes very difficult to do that in the case of Pakistan because we have a lot of like administrative instability. 

(17:40) Namra Khalid: In the past since March 2022 we've had three governments and we have elections coming up in a couple of weeks and we'll have our fourth government in less than two years. And every time a government changes, all policies of the of previous governments are gone down to the drain, and you have to start the whole relationship building from scratch. And that obviously becomes very difficult for any meaningful change to be created. 

(18:13) S. Tabibian: That's so powerful how you talk about the short -term memory within society. 

(18:20) Namra Khalid: In the US, all the policies of the previous government are not thrown away when a new government comes and also it's still like governments complete their term and everybody's expecting an election in four years. 

(18:33) S. Tabibian: In Pakistan, how does the re -election work, or are there re -elections? 

(18:38) Namra Khalid: Yes, we're having elections right now but unfortunately no government in Pakistan has ever completed its term in our 75 years. You know, they've always been either overthrown or something else or the other. 

(18:52) S. Tabibian: So a lot to think about and kind of shifting gears, but I was so honored to meet you through the Young Climate Prize. Can you tell us about what you learned through this experience? How did Karachi Cartography transform through YCP? 

(19:06) Namra Khalid: Firstly, I was so, so beyond honored to meet you too. So inspired because I've always said this out loud that you were probably the most inspirational YCP member and I wrote this as well so everybody else who's hearing it from YCP still I would say Sophia. Because you were so young and you're still coming up with so many ideas, things that most of us were not even thinking about. I can't even imagine what you come up with when you're older. 

(19:38) S. Tabibian: Thank you, Namra, no, I'm so inspired by you. Watching you speak at  New York and seeing all that you've accomplished, your story from Parsons, so inspirational. I hope I follow your footsteps. 

(19:50) Namra Khalid: Thank you. So YCP was an amazing, amazing experience. The World Around Team is again Beatrice and just wonderful people. I got to learn so much. At times when you feel like why would other people care about your problems or your country's problems? It was so, so motivating and so beautiful to just meet Anna and Beatrice and see that they're just constantly trying to make the world a better place and not ask, you know, trying to open opportunities for you whenever you ask for help, doing so many things without really asking for nothing at all in return. Then I was also super lucky to meet Henk as my mentor through YCP. Henk again was such a wonderful person with so much knowledge. He gave me so many ideas which transformed and made my project better. In many ways he connected me to a larger network of people involved in such work and who can help around. And also, just these people are so humble and you learn not just about your work through them, but also just how to live life and manage things and so much hopelessness related to climate change. All of us, the 25 of us, like every time we feel we feel like super, super demotivated. It's a nice realization to say that one of us is doing something, at least, which is like super, super amazing and could really bring about a difference. 

(21:21) S. Tabibian: Absolutely. It was really just one of the most energizing, inspiring environments that I've ever been in. And I honestly think this will be one of the lifetime experiences that I'll carry with me throughout all of my years. And I just can't imagine what my life would have been like without this Prize. It really has transformed me as well. Looking forward, what are your goals for Karachi Cartography in 2024? 

(21:49) Namra Khalid: So we're hoping to finish- not finish, because we can never really finish- but we're hoping to make a web-based app for our repository of maps we've collected digitally. We've actually collected around 2,000 maps that we are now going to place into a single web-based app so that urban planners, architects, real estate people, students, anybody actually can just open it and understand the socio-climatic evolution of Karachi when designing or planning or just researching for the city. And they don't have to go through the entire cumbersome process that I had to go through just to begin researching on whatever topic they need to begin with. We're also hoping to publish our first analysis of these maps. And other than that, these are some of the main goals. Other than that we're also mapping informal settlements in Karachi. So we've had the first draft out last year we've also built a second draft and hopefully we'll have the third draft ready by the end of the year and published. Other than that I think we're just going with the flow and seeing what opportunities come by and trying to work around those. 

(23:12) S. Tabibian: Well that's so exciting and I can't believe you're already at 2,000 maps collected from that first year of I believe you said 200 to 10 times that amount. That is absolutely insane and also I'm very excited for your analysis. I will be reading it and learning more because this topic is so fascinating. I was also reading about Tabahi Naqsha. So how is it interconnected with Karachi Cartography? 

(23:42) Namra Khalid: Tabahi Naqsha literally means disaster map in Urdu, which is the language we speak. Tabahi, it's a separate organization but partnered with Karachi Cartography. You might wonder why I have two organizations about mapping. But in a way, Karachi Cartography works for planning for disaster resilience. And Tabahi Naksha works actually during disasters. It's an app, a web-based app, which also works like a chatbot. So for instance, if you're in Karachi during an urban flooding episode, and I'm also here, and we're WhatsApp -ing each other or Instagram -ing each other or Facebook -ing each other using any of the Meta apps we're talking to each other, and we write the words urban flooding, rain, water, or any of the keywords we have, the bot instantly knows that you have said something and you can receive a message saying, would you like to report it? 

(24:52) Namra Khalid: If you say yes, you would like to report it, it shows you, you first have to give your pin location, a photo you clicked, and then it also shows you a human figure scale in which you can move it up and down to say, this is where, this is the water level. So in turn, it life maps the positions of disaster and what areas are damaged to what extent. In that way, people can then either avoid the areas which are in really bad conditions. And also people who are working on ground know that there are so many areas in bad conditions and they can spread rather than all being going and concentrating their aid towards one space, they can spread and go to all the places that they need urgent help. This is actually a project that's already been done in Indonesia, and they've given us their software and everything. So we're just contextualizing and adapting it to Pakistan right now. 

(25:58) S. Tabibian: I'm excited to see the outcome of that as well and all that you do with it in 2024. You've just clearly achieved so much at such a young age and I'm sure there are many listeners who are very inspired by your work and hope to follow in your footsteps. So what are your biggest pieces of advice for young change makers?

(26:19) Namra Khalid: I think one of the main things is just do. It's important to spend that time too and to do the research. Of course, I mean they're the biggest advocates of doing research before making any, giving any solutions but at the same time we need to start from somewhere. All of this, when you start thinking about climate change it can be so saddening and hopeless. that we often think it's such a big problem where to even start. But the biggest thing is to start and the rest of the opportunity is whatever you need to do get for this will just end up opening if you start from summer. 

(26:56) S. Tabibian: I completely agree and what do you view as your long -term involvement in the climate crisis? 

(27:03) Namra Khalid: I can't say much it depends on how the situation changes and how I mean ideally we'd like to stay involved in what we're doing you know first understanding the maps and designing but it can very rapidly change we never know with the climate crisis what is about to happen so a lot of I think impromptu changes that will happen we'll have to adapt accordingly. 

(27:31) S. Tabibian: Absolutely and to close off I just want to ask how can our followers support your work? 

(27:38) Namra Khalid: For now I think just stay tuned to both Tabahi Naqsha and Karachi Cartography. We're active on LinkedIn and Instagram. Whenever we need something we've probably put a call. And we'd also love to learn from anybody who would want to be involved with our work. 

(27:54) S. Tabibian: That's amazing, thank you so much Namra for your time. I know that everyone listening, including me, is incredibly energized and inspired by all the action that you're taking, and I can't wait to see your journey and to see all that you continue to do and achieve. 

(28:15) Namra Khalid: Thank you so much for having me Sophia, it was wonderful talking to you. 

(28:19) S. Tabibian: And that is it for The Climate Map today. Please visit covalenceglobal.org to learn more about how you can take action with us.